Marketing & Money - Part One of How to Super Charge Your Creative Business with Hayley Price
[00:00:00] Made Remarkable Intro: Welcome back. And thanks for tuning in to. The made remarkable podcast hosted by Kellee Wynne. Today Kellee is talking with Hayley Price to discuss the journey. Of defining a niche. And building a successful art career. Through one-to-one coaching a membership community, a blog, a podcast, and a wealth of free and affordable content. Hayley ensures that every creative finds the help they need. At a price within their reach, through the art coaching club. Together Kellee and Hayley explore how artists can make their mark in a competitive market. There was way too many juicy tips for just one episode. So make sure. Or to stay tuned for part two of this interview airing next week. Check out the show notes and transcripts for more information about Hayley exclusive promotional offers and any special links mentioned during the episode.
[00:01:14] Kellee Wynne: Well, hello. Hello. I'm Kellee Wynn, artist, author, mentor, fiercely independent mother and wife, and the founder of a multiple six figure creative business. And I love my life, but I've been where you're at. I was slogging away at this art business thing for more than a decade. Once I finally connected with my true calling, unlock the magic of marketing and built a system that could scale, while I realize I can make an impact and make a substantial income, I'm finally running a business that I love and it makes all the.
Difference in the world. My biggest dream is to help you do the same. Let this podcast be the catalyst to your biggest success. You already have it in you because you are made remarkable.
Yay! We're finally doing this, Hayley. We've been meaning to for months.
[00:02:04] Hayley Price: I know. It's so funny. I saw it come up on my calendar and I was like, I feel like this has been in the works for forever.
[00:02:10] Kellee Wynne: I think since springtime, but hey, now it goes in circles in our business.
[00:02:16] Hayley Price: But everything happens when it's meant to, you know, I'm sure lots has happened in your life, lots has happened in mine. We just have more insights to share.
[00:02:24] Kellee Wynne: A lot more actually, because a lot of things have changed since the spring for me, and I'm excited to talk about it. But let's start with Introductions, because we're doing a dual podcast episode right now.
[00:02:37] Hayley Price: Yes. I'd love for you to kick things off. Tell a little bit about yourself, how you got to where you are and for those new listeners on your pod and people that haven't met you yet on mine, just give us the brief overview.
[00:02:49] Kellee Wynne: Yes, certainly. I come from an artist background.
My father my great uncle, even I think my great grandfather were all artists and creatives, and I knew I wanted to be an artist high school. I did all the A. P. R. and I was going to go off to art school, but then I kind of felt abandoned and on my own and left to wonder.
And I. Join the army, which is not what an artist normally would go do, but I was still looking for adventure. So, I met my husband there and I got out of the military early and started a family, went back for some art classes, but there was something blocking my mind about. Being a mom and having the time to make art and paint and the complications of that.
And I think that was a lie. I told myself, well, I stayed creative. It was after my third son was born that I had like this massive aha. I'm like, why am I not doing the thing that I've always wanted to do? Why am I waiting for it? So I gave myself time to reacquaint with. Making art to find my voice to practice. And from about 2008 to 2012, that's all I did was I took more classes. I tried to find the way I wanted to make art. And then I jumped into the art scene at my local area. And it was like full force from that point on. I'm like, I am making a business out of this, which.
Is not exactly the easiest thing. I'm sure your listeners and my listeners alike are like, oh, it's a, it's a journey, you know, and I had some good success right out the gate as far as selling out some shows and connecting with gallerists, I mean, I had all kinds of amazing opportunities I just have all these things that kept coming up that I kept trying and doing. And falling short of actually making the kind of income that I wanted. And now in hindsight, I can go back to that time and say, what I know now would have changed everything.
But what I needed to do was go through that process to be where I am now. So I don't regret it, but I will say it was really hard to break past 20 K in any given year. So it wasn't a very profitable path. Changing paths all the time probably was part of the reason why it didn't become profitable. But in changing that path, I was able to see all the different options that were open to me and decide on the one that felt best.
The best, which was where I landed with color crush, creative and art courses online. Once I tapped into that part, it was just a whole new world opened up to me and I could see my potential.
It was like, I have a story to tell and I'm going to keep telling it. So that's how Color Crush Creative was born, and I, and I grew it quite rapidly, so I went from this artist who was making 20k in a year to someone who was making more than that in a month quite quickly, and that changed. How I looked at money.
It changed how I looked at community. It changed how I looked at marketing. And really from there, I've just seen a whole different new world open up. And of course, since then, I've also been transitioning from teaching art courses more into teaching creative business owners how to make profitable businesses because it's incredibly eye opening, life changing and amazing when you finally can earn the income that you want.
[00:06:20] Hayley Price: I love it. Yeah, I think I resonate so much with your story because I think it is hard. It is hard to make money as an artist, or at least that's the stigma. And then we put ourself in this box. And so that's what I really. Want to talk about today, but I'll give a little context into me and who I am and why I completely agree with everything you said, because I have a lot of those same like feelings and my story's not similar, but I think I also came from this background that is similar of, I did all the AP art classes.
I loved art. I would sell my art on the side in high school and college, but it never felt viable to be. A full time career. It just seemed really hard. And so I graduated, I studied business and studio art in college. Also funny. I thought that like, I was like, Oh, a business degree.
That'll be great. And then the art professors were like, you've taken so many art classes. You have the major. You only need to take three more. And I was like, why am I fighting this so hard? So I graduate did a marketing job. Cause that felt like that's creative. Did that for a little bit, got burnt out.
Didn't love it actually really, really didn't like it and ended up having the opportunity to start the scout and studio, which is an online art gallery. Because again, I think just selling my own artwork felt Intimidating, but I was like, I have a business background. I have marketing background. I can totally sell other people's artwork.
And so I really started there. And through that process, I was, Unintentionally coaching a lot of artists on how to sell their work, how to better market their work. Because one, I was becoming really close with the artists I was working with in the gallery, but also, you know, partially selfishly as a gallery owner, I want them to market their work.
I want them to. Know how to sell their work because that's going to benefit me too, you know? And so from there, I started my coaching business because I really saw this need. I was like, artists are so talented, but there is a disconnect for a lot of people of how to actually sell their work, how to get into galleries, how to market themselves, how to price themselves, you know?
And so that's where coaching came in and it has evolved into the club, which is a membership for artists and the podcast, which is where we are today. And so. My whole goal is just to give artists the confidence and the tools and the resources to really learn how to tell their story, how to sell their work and to, at the end of the day, be profitable.
Because like you said, and like you shared in your story, it's hard, but it doesn't have to be. You just need to have the right knowledge and you can really set yourself up to start on the right foot versus doing what we did and like go in a full circle to then end up where we needed to be.
[00:08:58] Kellee Wynne: I do believe that taking the long journey is worth it, in a lot of ways it's frustrating and I've met and coached enough artists that are like, I've worked so hard for nothing, but it's not for nothing.
It's the knowledge you gain, the experience you gain, the better understanding of who you are and what you like and don't like. But I do empathize with that thought of am I ever going to make it as an artist? And I think if I went back with the knowledge I have now and I could teach Kellee from 2012 what to do, she would have made plenty of money selling art.
And that's the thing is, is it just takes time and the right resources to know how to apply it to your own business.
[00:09:41] Hayley Price: Exactly, but I do think something else that you said is so important to highlight that, yes, that experience matters and specifically knowing what you like and what you don't really only comes with time.
That's totally aside from the profitability part, but I do think even just speaking for my own experience, like, I wouldn't have known. What worked, what I enjoyed doing that I even liked coaching artists. Had I not had all these other experiences, I never would have jumped into that because that never felt like something I would have wanted to do.
And so it's really interesting going through these experiences and learning about yourself. I think for artists, it's like you learn what you like to create. You learn how you like to interact with your customer. Do you like being on camera? Not do you like being in front of other people? Do you not like all of that?
I think you learn a lot from these different experiences.
[00:10:29] Kellee Wynne: Yeah, I mean, it's only in the trial and error. It's the same with finding our voice as artists and making the kind of work that lights us up. I mean, I changed my style so many times. I would say that was probably one of the reasons it was hard for me to make money because I was always chasing after the next idea or here's an art show and this is the theme.
So I'd change my work to fit a theme rather than being stuck. You know, really diving into what lit me up and making the work that worked for me. And so of course, we have to, as artists go through this process where we're figuring out what work is my work, but once you do like double down on it, cause that's where it's going to work best for you.
You become recognizable and known, and that's the exact same principle and building any kind of business. You want to be recognizable and known for the thing that's unique to you.
[00:11:25] Hayley Price: Completely. And I think what's really hard, or at least what I'm seeing in the art landscape right now, when it comes to style is I think it's so easy to see what is selling for other people because of social media, because, you know, there's more artists on Instagram than ever because Instagram didn't exist, however many years ago.
And so instead of. Before you really had to sell your work in a gallery and you had to go to galleries to see what was selling. Now it's like, just with a click, you can be like, Oh, well she's doing this and it seems to be working or he sold out this collection by doing this. And so I think artists feel this need to like hop because they're like, Oh, well I like painting this.
But this might perform better. And so I like what you said, because we're in a time where I think that's something that might sway us, but I really believe that if you double down, you stick with what's true to you, you can find your audience. And I know that's intimidating and kind of scary for some people, but I do think that's the way to really build a strong brand, not to limit your creativity, but not to fear what you want to create.
[00:12:26] Kellee Wynne: Absolutely. Creating the thing that is most. unique to you, right? There's a place for every style of art in this world. So when you stop and you're like, I don't think this will sell well, you're really like taking away from your own creative genius, right? Who would have ever even thought splattered paint would work well, but Jackson Pollock isn't all the famous.
Gallery or museums, right? So you kind of need to break through in your own point of view, whether it's for your business or it's for your art. It's like the deeper you can go on the thing that that lights you up, the deeper you can go in making your work. I think. And so many artists will go wide and they're trying this thing and that thing instead of saying, and this was a mistake exactly that I made.
I'd be like, oh, I really enjoyed that. But now I'm turning my attention to this other thing, because there was a call for for action. There was something that I saw on on Instagram or on Pinterest. And I'm like, I'm going to try that thing now, I actually missed the fact that I could have relished in going deep with finding.
What it was about that thing that I enjoyed and making it better, right? And being known for it. It doesn't mean that you don't pivot or change your point of view or your style of your art or your voice as an artist. It just means so many artists just jump so quickly every month or 2 every couple of months to the next thing.
You're never going to really be seen or known.
[00:13:52] Hayley Price: And I think it's, it's really interesting because I found I was doing the exact same thing when I graduated, but when I actually was in the art program in school, it was so funny because they forced us to go deep. I mean, our whole senior year was basically you had your art period to do your one thing.
And then every time I thought my. One thing was great. The teacher would be like, no, you need to do more. You need to go deeper. You need to do like, and so by the end of the year, the evolution, it's so interesting, you could see like how my art evolved to where it ended up, but it's funny, the minute I graduated and I didn't have that structure, I was like, I'm going to paint flowers and I'm going to do landscapes and I'm going to do abstracts, and then, like you said, there's a call for art for, This type of work, I'm going to do smalls.
, it's so easy to fall into that, but I think we have to like, give our self guard rails of, let's try to pick one. I don't want to say one lane, cause I don't think you should limit your creativity, but you should kind of. Give yourself a project almost so that you can rein yourself in a little bit.
[00:14:52] Kellee Wynne: Yeah. Just cut off the edges a little bit, you know, it's like, there's a time and a place for exploring everything. And especially when you're a new artist, you're still taking classes, you're learning from people, but when you're ready to make a career out of it, that's where the mindset shift has to change.
Some people call it a niche. Some people call it like finding your style and your voice, but for. Everyone, you know, that's super successful. What is it that they have in common? There's a very clear, distinct voice coming from that person, whether it's somebody who's teaching art courses or somebody who's selling art or somebody who's licensed everywhere.
There's like a very clear, you can stop and say, I could recognize that person's art anywhere because they have been making it so consistently their voice shines through it. And that's really where we want to get with whatever it is that we're. We're looking to sell. If you're not selling art, ignore every advice that we give you.
Like, it really doesn't matter. Make whatever you want. But if you want to become proficient and known and stand out, you go deeper into who you are and what you want to make rather than allowing so much influence of everything else we see in social media. It's like, lean in more to who you are. Is my advice.
[00:16:06] Hayley Price: Yeah. And I want to talk about niching down in a second too, but something I find really interesting with specifically being an artist versus, I don't know, someone that sells like a product, for example, like, let's say you create cups.
I'm just thinking of a random product and there's a cup on my desk. It's like you create the product and then you do all of your marketing to sell that product. But when you're an artist, it's like, You have to market as you're creating because you're not like, Oh, I know exactly what I'm marketing. It's you're evolving as you're marketing yourself and your work. And so that's why I think those guardrails are a little bit important so that you at least have a message to your marketing because it is hard because what you're creating is constantly evolving.
I mean, it's getting better and it's improving and you're refining. But it's still evolving. And so your marketing kind of has to stay in line with that. And so it's just something I've come to realize recently. I'm like, it is hard marketing being an artist, but it's cause it's different and you have to shift your mindset.
[00:17:00] Kellee Wynne: Especially because I hear often from some of the other big voices in the industry. You don't need a niche. You don't have to. And it's like, how is that working for you though? Someone who has hundreds of thousands of followers can say that because they've already found their niche by standing out.
But if you don't already have like this massive email list, you can't just willy nilly one day I want to talk about this. The next day, we're going to dive deep into this and have your customers go. But okay, I'm losing interest because all you're showing me are your cats now.
[00:17:36] Hayley Price: Yep. And I completely agree with you.
We have to talk about it. I'm like every successful company, like let's even go beyond artists. Every successful business across the board has a niche. You go to their page and you're like, I get it. I know who this is for. It is not for me or it is for me or whatever. But I think when it comes to artists, I talked to so many artists on coaching calls and they'll say, Well, I think my ideal client is just someone that can afford my artwork that has a home that it fits in.
I'm like, no, you have to get specific. I mean, I feel like I know the people that resonate with what I do to the point where I could almost give them a name. I know how they talk. I know what they like. Like you have to really know so that you can. Speak to them. So they care about what you're saying.
And a lot of the times, you want your client to resonate with what you're doing. So you have to have a niche
[00:18:24] Kellee Wynne: I absolutely believe in a niche because it actually makes your business easier.
And so for everyone who's like, Oh, but I feel so trapped. I'm going to be like, you can still be you. You can still show your cat once in a while. Like, but if you want to make money and attract a customer, you get to get, you have to be very crystal clear on who that is. And it doesn't mean that you're trapped in that forever and ever.
It just means for right now, you're going to get super clear about that. What marketing is not is showing a picture of your art and telling the name of it and the size of it and the price that is not marketing. That is just like a bullet point. People aren't going to be attracted just to that. Now, for all of you who do that and sell out, congratulations, you're an anomaly.
But for everyone else, it's like you really need a point of view and a focus. And that can be pretty much anything. Do you make, Like, ocean theme, so who needs ocean themed art? People who have big houses, people who live near the water, people who dream of living near the water, like, really think about these things.
Are you nature oriented? Are you like, abstract and wild? Are you speaking out against something? Really start developing like this goes for art course creators too. And that's what I see is like, I'm for everybody. And here's the magic in picking a niche and getting narrow focuses.
You speak to that specific problem or pain point or point of view. Or deep desire doesn't mean other people can't buy it. It doesn't mean that other people won't come. It just means that when you speak like that, someone will stop and say, oh, man, they get me. And that's what you want. You want someone to be able to stop and say, and have it just be top of mind.
Oh, my goodness. When I think of florals, the 1st person I think of is because. She's gone so specific of that, you know, and she just goes all in over and over again and like really makes this abundant, you know, and maybe it's not florals. Maybe it's the way you make any kind of abstract floral person landscape, but you have a certain feeling, mood and way that you connect with your customers.
So we can really define a niche any way you want, but it's the consistency in that niche and how you speak to that person. That's when the fire and magic happens.
[00:20:43] Hayley Price: Exactly. And I actually heard, I heard this on a podcast and I found it really interesting. She was talking about your Instagram as like a morning TV show and that each kind of thing you post is like a different segment.
So you need to think about what is your show about? Like that is your, that's kind of your niche, that's your brand. But then each segment is kind of how you tell that story. And each segment is in my understanding, like a different post. And so you can post, you know, let's say you are. Floral artists and you are leaning really hard into that.
You can post. Your inspiration, you painting why you paint these flowers. You can also post about flowers and your garden and that you love gardening because all of those are kind of different segments, but they're all telling the story of, like, you are the floral artist expert. And so I really loved that analogy because I thought it was just an interesting way to think about it.
As, okay, this is how I can post different things, but are they still aligned with this brand and this niche? Do they resonate with the person I'm trying to talk to?
[00:21:46] Kellee Wynne: Exactly. In fact, I think the best quote I ever heard, is, let me see if I can get this right. I fear not the man who has a hundred different kicks.
I fear the man who has. Perfected one kick a hundred times. And that was a Bruce Lee quote. Yeah. And so it really comes back. Same with marketing, pick the one thing and repeat it a hundred different ways, which is exactly what you were talking about. It's like, how many different ways can I say you need serenity in the home?
And I can provide it with the art that I make. How many different ways can you say that for the person who is conscious about the mood that they're creating in their house, they want soft, they want calm. And then you repeat the idea over and over and show how your art fits into it. How do you repeat a hundred different ways of saying, you don't make enough time for yourself in your busy corporate world, here is a place where I can give you peace.
In order to make art and I have these tools to help you and repeat it over and over and over again. It's in that really like having that crystal clear focus and finding fun and unique ways to really point the arrows at that idea. That's when you become known for it. And so then anyone who's like. I'm really struggling.
I take no time for myself anymore. I really need something. And someone says, you know what? I know this person. That's all she talks about. You should go seek her out. When you say, look, I'm, an interior designer and all my clients want these soft, quiet, muted colors, nature infused, serene look. And you're like, I know this person.
That's all they do. Let me refer you to this person. This is the whole goal of like really becoming brand being like really people knowing who you are and what you stand for,
[00:23:43] Hayley Price: right? So many artists say they want to be household names. They're like, I want it to come to mind. I want people to know me. I want to be like so and so or so and so.
And I'm like the way you become a household name. Is there being really known for something you're not just gonna be known for painting. That's that's a lot of competition, but like, you can be known for what you just said, like, if I want a super calming piece in my bedroom, because that is where I go to sleep and I need just a serene landscape.
I'm like, all right, I know this person, or if you need that, I can say, this is who you go to. And so it's really about understanding how do you want to be known and And hammering that home in any way you can. And then all of a sudden you're known for it. And that's where word of mouth kicks in. Because if you're known for that, people will start pointing their friends that need that to you.
And that's where we really want to get.
[00:24:34] Kellee Wynne: I'll give an example that's not art related, but would be a really good way for someone to connect. If I say I need to learn more about vulnerability, who comes to mind? Renee Brown, she's really marketed herself there. Has she branched out? Does she have some other things she talks about?
Yes, but she's top of mind when we think of that, right? Yeah, we could even think of some other people in different industries. Like, Amy Porterfield email Marketing and Digital Course Academy. It was like, yeah, we know what she talks about.
Or Stu McLaren and the membership experience.
[00:25:11] Hayley Price: Well, I mean like Jackson Pollock splattered paint, like, I mean, I know that's a really specific one, but when you think of, or I guess if you think.
Spotted paint, you think Jackson Pollock
[00:25:21] Kellee Wynne: Well, how about one of my clients, Drew Steinbrecher, the moment I say that you're like, jelly plate are in bold colors, and I know that immediately because he's so consistent about that and everything he does relates to that. So people go to him for that now.
He even is on the team for Jolly Arts. So it's when you're that consistent opportunities come to you because people know. Okay. I have 1 person who's been building up from 0. Her name's delight Rogers, but now people are seeking her out to be on, like, health, wellness and creativity summits because she has put herself in that. Position to be known for that over and over again.
[00:26:02] Hayley Price: Yeah. And I think that is what's so cool because your uniqueness and what you bring to the table specifically, and so it's like, you're leaning into. Either your talent, your interests, something that's uniquely you and in sharing that, and if that's, you know, a part of your niche that your knowledge, you know, can be brought in all of a sudden, that's what also makes you stand out and valuable to people. And that's what makes people want to support you.
And so it's pretty cool that you're now building your business on you and on what your talents are, what you're knowledgeable about, like, why wouldn't we do that?
[00:26:36] Kellee Wynne: Right, exactly. So when, when I have. students or members that come to me and they're like, okay, I want to teach a class and I want to help people get over the fear of making art.
And I'm like, that's what everybody says. How can you differentiate when you have a client probably that comes to you? And it's like, like you said, I want to make art and my art is for anyone who can afford it or any house that's stylish. Like, okay, that's huge and broad. So the more specific we can get, actually the easier it is for us.
To market our business and find our customers.
[00:27:13] Hayley Price: Yeah, I'm big on specifically for artists. I'm like, okay, great. When you say stylish home, I want you to bring me a Pinterest board of the exact home. I want the home, not the homes. I'm like, I want you to show me the home. I want you to show me the person. Like, I think when you can really kind of narrow it down to one person, like what do they look like?
What do they care about? What events do they attend? What do they not attend? Like, what do they hate? It's like, let's get so specific. And then all of a sudden. You feel like even if you are sending an email to 5, 000 people, you're sending it to the one and you're sending it to that one person. And those people that.
That is them. It's going to resonate so clearly. They're going to click purchase. They're going to sign up for the course because it's not somebody who, you know, wants to start painting. It's somebody who wants to start painting because they just, you know, their kids went to college and they have all this extra time and they need a hole to fill it, and they specifically want to create small artwork to fill their.
Kids old bedroom. I don't know. It's like, get specific.
[00:28:16] Kellee Wynne: That crazy specific. And we could do a typical, ICA, which stands for ideal client avatar, where you're giving your client a name and age and where they live and yada, yada. And that can be good. That's the demographics that helps you kind of picture that person.
But I love it when, if you can go into the psychographics, how does she feel now that her kids left off to college? What keeps her worried? Is she like thinking about the fact that she's now in the second half of a century and she's like, what am I going to do? Am I important? Am I leaving any sort of a legacy behind?
If she stays up at night thinking about these things, then I can speak on that just because I'm in that phase a little bit more. My kids haven't left yet though. They're all still at home because it's too expensive out there. But like, what is it that's bothering me? And in my business, and I'm like, so I get frustrated because I'm spinning my wheels.
I'm working so hard. I don't know how to get this business off the ground running. I've tried all these things, right? So now I can speak to my customer and they should by now know that not only do I help course creators, but I, I help them simplify their business so that they can actually make more money.
That's my goal, right? Is because I want to be known for uncomplicating your mess, ending the hustle, doing it without the grind. I want to give you simpler tools. And this is one of the most important tools you can use to build your business and make more money without stressing out. It's really, So counterintuitive because I would say half the people listening to us right now are like I don't want a niche I don't want to be that specific.
I don't want to feel pigeonholed and put into a box Look, you still get to share your life with people. You still get to be who you are hiking biking You know, surfing, whatever it is you do and share snippets of who you are. But when it comes to the business, the thing you want to sell, that's when you want to get super hyper specific.
[00:30:20] Hayley Price: I agree. And I think. Speaking in terms of someone who I think I've slowly niched more and more over time, I think when I finally let go and was like, I'm just going to lean in, it opened a whole new door for me. I feel like the content I'm creating is so much more authentic. It's so much more me because I know who I'm speaking to.
I know what I'm trying to say. I know what their pain points are. So I can do it in my own way. Like I can put my own spin on it and I can do it in my personality versus I think when you're trying to talk to everyone or you're trying to talk to a large group, you feel like you have to like put up this facade of like, well, I, you know, need to make everyone happy because I want to reach everyone.
So I can sell to everyone versus when I, you know, really figured out who my niche was. I was like, okay, I can just be myself because my niche resonates with that. And it's like, it actually made. It's so, so, so much easier. So I'd love to kind of ask you, you know, when an artist. Does understand their niche and the importance of niching down.
How do we start to reach these people? Like, what are some marketing specific tactics you would recommend, whether it be for selling artwork or for courses or for anything?
[00:31:25] Kellee Wynne: Here's, here's the thing that really sparked with what you were saying was You knew what content to make because you had gotten so specific.
And so, I hear it over and over again. In fact, I spend a lot of time doing some research, interviews, surveys, because I always want to tap in to what my actual audience's struggles are. And that helps me create content, by the way. P. S. P. S. But it's one of the biggest challenges. Many of them are talking about like, I don't know what to create.
I try all these things and it's not resonating. And of course we come back to how, how much easier it is to create content when you're no, when you know who you're talking to. Like you were just saying, it's like, it's getting easier. What I see artists doing is, is they copy everyone else. They do the songs and dance. And by emulating, we learn. But. What's happening now with social media and with mass amounts of content everywhere you turn is quality content that has an important message is way more important than a quantity that is meaningless. So it's this ability to create content with purpose and intent that makes everything so much better.
Easier. Did I answer your question or did I go off on a tangent?
[00:32:44] Hayley Price: No, I think you started to answer it and I want to talk more about it, but I completely agree. I think once you know who you're trying to reach and what you're trying to say, so kind of like the two coins of the niche, I do think The content just starts to come.
I feel like people might not believe that, but it's really true. I used to really fight, making reels or whatever. And I was like, I just don't know what to post. Like, how do I do this in a way that's natural? And then once I figured out who I was talking to and what I was trying to say, it was really easy for me to just get on there and say something, whether it be me talking or, you know, all the different ways you can do it.
And it didn't feel like, Oh, I'm just, you know, like you said, kind of doing what everyone else is doing and turning my painting around or, you know, whatever. I was like, okay, this is the video I'm going to make, cause this is me. And this is what people will resonate with. And so I think that's something a lot of artists probably need to hear is it will become easier, but yeah, I mean, you do learn from experimenting and you learn along the way, but yeah, it's funny.
A lot of artists will be like, well, I don't want to make reels. Cause I don't want to, you know, dance in front of the camera. And I'm like, well, you don't have to, if that's not what your audience wants and that's not what your niche is about, you don't have to do that.
[00:33:52] Kellee Wynne: We have this idea of needing the vanity metrics of how big our account is, how many people we reach, how many likes we get, how many comments we get, when we forget that a low, like no viral virality, no, no big account numbers, but very hyper specific that you're actually reaching the people that matter and having real connections, real conversations, talking to them about the things that are important to them.
I think an account that has a thousand perfectly ideal customers engaged is way better than a hundred thousand of just random people who found you from one. Viral video. You know, it's so awesome. Like, look, it's just gone crazy. And now I have all these people, but volume doesn't actually equate to money.
Yeah. And that people don't realize there are so many accounts out there with huge accounts and they're making no money. And I know people who have 5, 000 or less and they're making six figures or more a year.
[00:34:52] Hayley Price: I mean, I tell people that all the time, my art coaching specific Instagram, I think I'm like right under 4, 000 right now.
And I'm doing fine. Like, I think everyone, 4, 000 is a lot of people, like when you think about them in a room. And so I always tell people, I'm like, if you can get a steady trickle of people following you that actually care and actually are going to tell their friends about you, buy your artwork, you know, support you, sign up for a course, whatever your end goal is, that's so much better than, getting a thousand in one day that, that don't care.
I was actually listening to, this creator on tick tock, and she was like, I learned the key to go viral. Like, I know how to make a video that goes viral. I don't do that. I specifically don't because it just gets me all these followers that either unfollow me or don't resonate.
And she was like, I've purposely been creating stuff that I know resonates with the audience. I want to have versus what I just know will take off on tick tock. And I heard that. And I was like, That's it. More people need to realize that it's not about going viral to go viral. It's about resonating with people that are going to care and that are going to act on it.
And I think that's the difference. And it's hard in this content society. We feel like we need the followers to succeed. But like you said, so many people have so many followers and aren't getting the traction they need. Or selling at all,
[00:36:12] Kellee Wynne: at all. Well, and there's two reasons they might not be selling. One, they might have all these people and not know what to do with them, or they might not be the right people.
So let's assume they were all the right people. Are they making the right steps then to build the email list and know how to ask for the sale? And that comes into a whole other problem that artists have, which is this mindset around being worthy of making money. Well, it's something that I love to do. So it feels kind of weird to ask money for it all.
I'm going to take this like three foot by three foot painting and sell it for 75. And I'm like, you spent more on supplies, like ask your worth. But that's just like, we could probably on layer the psychology of money, which we should talk about, but it's more the upfront of understanding how to ask for the sale, how to actually. Not just attract the right customer, but then ask for the
[00:37:09] Hayley Price: sale. Right. And I think that's a really important step to understand is it's like, okay, great. We're kind of going through this. Like you understand your niche, you understand the content. You are attracting people. Awesome. You've, you've checked all the boxes of things we've talked about so far.
Well, then what? I think that's when the email list comes in. Like the content you're providing, let's say on Instagram is awareness, excitement, they're getting to know you. That's all great. Then how do we sell to them? Then how do we take that next step? And let's talk about it.
I mean, I think email is key. I think everyone needs an email list, but for artists that are listening, how would you recommend we even start to grow it?
[00:37:45] Kellee Wynne: I think there's a different technique depending on what you're looking for. If you're to sell art or you're looking to sell, services, like Courses, memberships, coaching or whatever.
Those are slightly different businesses. So what you'll, I think what you're looking for as an artist who's selling is to not fill your list with other artists and that's a really important thing. So many artists finally end up making courses because they realize that their list is heavy and their followers are heavy with other artists.
Whereas. Your goal if you're selling art is to be connecting with people who aren't artists, but people who are buyers. So that would mean rubbing elbows with the designers talking and chatting on Instagram accounts or forums where, you know, there's, there's. Your person that person who just bought a new beach house, like, where are they hanging out?
Right? Right. So look for that those communities and start attracting those people providing value. What is it that you can provide? In your email, and now we're not talking about just email marketing, but how can you provide real value? And the same thing goes for someone who has a course or a program or something.
It's like, how are you going to show them that you're the person that's going to solve the problem? How are you going to? Give them a taste of who you are. That's so enticing that they're like, yeah, I want to know what that's all about. I have the grid journaling thing for the longest time that sold itself.
People are like, that looks perfect. I could learn how to do any style experiment with my colors. I want to learn how to do grid journaling. Right. And. And that built my list because I had what we would call a lead magnet, but it's got to be super juicy. And it's got to be more than just, I'm giving you this thing so you'll take it and then unsubscribe, but I'm going to continue to nurture you and give you value in my newsletter.
[00:39:44] Hayley Price: Yeah, I think that's key. I think your lead magnet Two things you hit on, it needs to speak to the customer you want. And that's a mistake I see artists make a lot. They're like, Oh, I'll give away my like guide for my favorite supplies. I'm like, interior designers don't care about that. You need to give like a guide for something they care about.
Or if it is a guide, it could be like how to frame my pieces that aren't standard sizes. Something that a client might need to purchase a piece. They might need to know how to frame it. I don't know that just came to mind, but I think there's that aspect. And then it also, it does need to be juicy.
Like it needs to be something that they're like, okay, wow, this was so valuable. I loved the content she provided and I want to stick around. Like, I want to see more of what she does. I really loved. Whatever it was, surface level, like, I want more of this. So I want to stay on the list. I want to be the 1st to know.
I want whatever your list is providing them or your email is providing them. So it's not just because again, it's, it's like social media. It's not about the numbers. It's about getting the right people,
[00:40:42] Kellee Wynne: the right people who are actually interested in opening the email for 2017 till I launched my 1st course in 2018.
I provided. A new color palette every single Friday for a whole year. I didn't ask anything from anybody. I just kept sharing, engaging, creating a big, like, it opened up more questions. Like, I love this palette. How do I get those colors? And that's what led me to color mixing and all my color courses.
And it was in that. Process of creating a newsletter that was so good in and of itself. I didn't even need a lead magnet. They wanted to be on the newsletter because the newsletter itself was so good. And I, I teach both how to create a really good juicy lead magnet, but then also how to design your messaging and your newsletter around something inbox.
[00:41:38] Hayley Price: Yep.
[00:41:39] Kellee Wynne: And I think it
[00:41:40] Hayley Price: is. And I think the key is. To give like give, give, give, give, give. Like you have to give a lot away for free. And that can be in terms of information to have someone then turn around and want to support you. And so I think that's something too, where artists are like, Oh, or, you know, someone that wants to sell a course, it's like, well, I just want them to sign up and I'm like, you have to.
Kind of warm them up to it. You have to show your expertise. You have to show your talent. You have to repeatedly tell them why you're the artist they need to buy from. Like it relates to niche. It relates to the content you're creating on Instagram. And then that, that flows through to your email too.
Like every email you send, you need to be providing them. The bullet points that explain why you're the person for that niche, you know, in a really valuable way. And I think that's the disconnect too. Sometimes they're like, Oh, well, I just use my email then to sell. And it's like, your email can just be another place where you continue to give.
So that at the end, when you say, and then here's like how you can sign up, or here's how you can learn more. They're actually going to click through there. Cause they're going to actually open the email in the first place.
[00:42:42] Kellee Wynne: Right, exactly. Higher open rates will happen when you're providing value on a regular basis.
That's exactly related to your niche. I was working with a client who is selling products, helping her design a newsletter that is a product. Non artists would be interested in opening. I said, and here's how you can repurpose all this. If you put work into something, that's just like eye popping when it's arrives.
It's like a little mini magazine that opens up in somebody's. Email and it's like you're painting a picture the dream you're solving the problem You're you're painting a picture of serenity in the home where you're painting a picture of someone who loves to entertain and how that would look And here's the latest information on this and so suddenly it's like almost like good old days of blogging you're writing Information on a repeat, like, it doesn't have to be every week, folks, don't panic, you don't have to write every week, but at least once or twice a month showing up and saying, here's the value I provide for you, you're growing their desire to be part of the world that you're creating.
[00:43:51] Hayley Price: And I mean, just from a super basic level, it keeps you top of mind. I think a lot of people think people are just going to come seek them out. You kind of have to give people a reason to find you and to find you again. And that's where like a monthly email is a great way to just keep you top of mind for people that might forget about you too.
We got a lot to keep up with.
[00:44:09] Kellee Wynne: Exactly. And here's the secret about email is that you can actually reach them. Right? Whereas with social media, oh my goodness, we know and I hear it all the time. Oh my goodness, the algorithm sucks. Well, it does sometimes and sometimes it's the content. It's not resonating with your person, but we have no control over that.
And it's banging and people get so frustrated that they just want to quit. But if you're constantly building the email list, you have an opportunity to reach these people. In a more intimate setting, they're saying, yes, I'm welcoming you into my inbox. So now let's provide some value, right? If you're taking business seriously, an email list, a regular newsletter, that's.
Got great content in it. It's a must at this point.
[00:45:01] Hayley Price: It absolutely is. And I think there was a rise of people that really grew their business on Instagram because there was a time when the algorithm was like in favor of creatives. And I think that shifted and now people are like, Oh shoot, it's not working.
Everyone. I'm so over the negative algorithm talk. Cause yeah, it sucks, but like sometimes it's great. Sometimes it's bad. That's just, that's technology. Like it's going to constantly be changing. Who knows there might be a period when it's great again, but you got to be ready for when it's not. And so I think that's where having something like an email list that you own, that you can control when it goes out, who sees it, you know, who it reaches is a must, you have to have it.
And that's why businesses have had it for so long. There's just a reason it, it works. And it's, it's definitely my number one conversion tool by far. I feel like I have to say that every week on the podcast and people still don't believe me. And I'm like, what, I mean, what do you need me to do?
Send you screenshots? Why,
[00:45:54] Kellee Wynne: why have you not started your email list yet? That's my biggest question. I'm like, I don't know, like, I think it's hilarious by now. My audience and your audience should know that's like our number one rule. Make a list. Even if you're not going to use Instagram, which I believe Instagram is still.
Most likely the best place for a lot of us to keep building in social land, but there are so many other ways you can find people. If you can find other ways to get them on your list, the list is where it's at. That's where we build the money. That's where the wealth is.
[00:46:31] Made Remarkable Intro: Stay tuned for part two of this episode where Kellee and Hayley Dive into money mindset. for artists in business.
Until then here's some ways that you can connect with Kellee and Hayley, and learn more information about the Art Coaching Club.
[00:46:43] Kellee Wynne: You can find me at Kellee Wynn. I actually dropped the studios this year. So it's just K E L L E E W Y N N E. Same with my website. I have a brand new, newsletter coming out, brand new title, brand new theme called Rebel Genius. So you can actually go to rebelgenius. com and sign up for my newsletter. Awesome.
[00:47:07] Hayley Price: And let's make sure that everybody can find it. I am pretty much the art coaching club everywhere. Hayley price, but it's the art coaching club on Instagram, the art coaching club. com. Those are probably the two easiest places to get started.
But the art coaching club here to Answer all your biggest artist questions.
Thank you so much. Thank you. This was fantastic.
If you'd like to listen to or learn more about the podcast visit https://www.maderemarkable.com/blog for our show notes and links to the main players.