Should You Trademark Your Program? With Legalpreneur Andrea Sager
[00:00:00] Made Remarkable Intro: Welcome back. And thanks for tuning into the made remarkable podcast, hosted by Kellee Wynne. When you're just getting started in business, or even years later navigating the maze of legalities trademarks and work-life balance can seem like uncharted territory. Which is exactly why Kellee brought Andrea Sager to today's episode to discuss legal protection for small businesses. Andrea is the founder of legal printer and the host of the legal preneur podcast. Providing resources like contract templates, LLC filings and DIY legal products that set businesses up for success without breaking the bank. Check out the show notes and transcripts for more information about Andrea exclusive promotional offers and any special links mentioned during the episode.
Kellee loves connecting with listeners. So don't be shy. Reach out on social media or just tap reply in Kellee's latest newsletter. Together, let's build a community that celebrates the remarkable. If you want to be notified every time a new episode hits the airwaves, just hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you for joining us today and always remember. You are made remarkable destined to achieve the unimaginable. Now let's get to the good part.
Introducing Kellee Wynn and Andrea Sager
[00:01:14] Kellee Wynne: Well, hello. Hello. I'm Kellee Wynn, artist, author, mentor, fiercely independent mother and wife, and the founder of a multiple six figure creative business. And I love my life, but I've been where you're at. I was slogging away at this art business thing for more than a decade. Once I finally connected with my true calling, unlock the magic of marketing and built a system that could scale, while I realize I can make an impact and make a substantial income, I'm finally running a business that I love and it makes all the.
Difference in the world. My biggest dream is to help you do the same. Let this podcast be the catalyst to your biggest success. You already have it in you because you are made remarkable./
Hello Andrea! I have a new friend on the podcast today and I'm really excited to get to know you.
[00:02:07] Andrea Sager: Hi! I'm so excited to be here. I'm so glad we got connected on threads and excited to just jam out here.
[00:02:13] Kellee Wynne: Okay, so let's talk about that. Threads, who would have ever thought that's where I'm finding new friends, clients, podcasts, guests, everything.
It's like, it's fun to be there right now, right?
[00:02:25] Andrea Sager: It is, and it's so funny because, you know, whenever it even launched, I don't even remember when they launched, less than a year ago, there was a lot of hype. And then it kind of just like died down after a few weeks, but I feel like now it's picking back up steam and I don't even, I honestly can't even tell you why I started getting on threads again.
But I've just, I've been living there a little lately and it's been fun.
[00:02:53] Kellee Wynne: I'm having fun there too. Only on my computer though, because as everyone in my podcast world knows now, I deleted all of the social media apps off of my phone, which has been a huge shift for me. But Threads is still fun on my computer when I choose to connect.
And I can tell you exactly why I started getting on is because it started getting fun there. I'm just going to call these the good old days because one day it's not going to be so much fun, but it delivered me amazing people because what I asked for, I posted, I said, I want diversity. I want new voices.
I want different points of view to come on my podcast. I need, All different kinds of voices, right? And I've been pooling from my same, circle of friends. And now it's time for me to just take Made Remarkable and push it out there. What makes us remarkable? What do you do? How do you grow this business and not totally burn out in the process of doing it?
And. How you help people. And what's really cool is you are a trademark attorney. You're one of the top attorneys in all of the United States. So when I say threads delivered. Threads delivered, totally random, coolest people, and I'm so excited about that. So Andrea, I would love for you to introduce yourself and tell us, like, what do you do?
And then we're going to get into a little bit about your journey.
[00:04:15] Andrea Sager: Beautiful. I have a fun journey. So I worked in big law. I had my dream job right out of law school. And from day one, I was. miserable. I remember it hit me like a ton of bricks my first week there. Cause we have our summer internship and it's fun.
They make it fun. Make sure you think you're going to love it. And then you, you know, bait and switch you start. And that first week I was like, Oh my gosh, what am I doing here? Immediately? I knew it was not for me. And partly because I had another small business that I had sold before I started at the big firm.
And so I always say that I hurt myself by being an entrepreneur first.
But I used to say it back then. Now, of course, you know, everything happens for a reason. It happened exactly the way it was supposed to. I got my experience in Big Law, and then I actually was able to start my own firm. And the reason I hated Big Law was partly because they wouldn't let me serve small businesses, which makes complete sense.
But after having that first small business, I had a consistent network. Small businesses coming to me asking for help. They usually couldn't afford the rates at the firm. And finally I was just like, get me out of here. Like somebody has to go serve these small businesses. So why not me? Well, I was also married at the time and we had, our first child.
He was seven months when I first started at the firm, and. My then husband started to stay home as soon as I started at the firm and he was not supportive of me wanting to go out on my own, which understandable. I was the only one making money at the time. And so it's like, okay, we're making, you know, big loss salary.
And then she wants to start her own firm and then potentially make not much for a while. Well, you know, The universe was looking out for me and finally, I actually, I always say I manifested getting fired. If that's a thing. No, it is.
[00:06:10] Kellee Wynne: I absolutely do. I believe it.
[00:06:14] Andrea Sager: So I say I manifested getting fired because we had already put our house for sale. We were in Cincinnati, Ohio. We put our house for sale and we're planning on moving to Houston, which is where my family is. Well, Monday we put our house on the market. Wednesday, I remember texting my husband at the time and saying, I'm so miserable.
I think we have enough money to hold us over and savings. Can I just quit today? And he said, why don't you just wait till we have a contract on the house? Totally understandable. Let's wait till we have a contract. So I don't quit that day, but Friday they walk into my office, they being my boss and my mentor.
And I knew exactly what was happening. Essentially. They told me I could take a severance and leave or be on a PIP, a performance improvement plan. And it took everything in me to look sad when they made this offer to me because I was, I mean, I was days away from quitting. I mean, I was this close to quitting.
I waited a couple days and here they come with this windfall. And it was, I always say it was the best day of my life because I wanted to start my own firm. I was having a hard time leaving on my own. And so they just, Picked me out and gave me a little bit more cushion. And so they gave you the keys to the golden handcuffs and you were free.
Exactly. And so I launched my firm that night and I had my first client and the rest is kind of history. Well, I guess that's where it starts. That's really where the journey starts. But it's been a beautiful journey. That was six and a half years ago when I got fired and I started on my own and it's been honestly just an honor being able to serve so many small businesses, because I remember sitting in that, in that office that, you know, it was so fancy on the outside looking in, it was the absolute dream, but I was miserable.
And I remember sitting there thinking to myself like, Oh, that would be so cool to be this go to attorney. For small businesses, online businesses. And a couple of, a couple of years ago I was sitting in my house and just something so random hit me and I was like, Oh, I am that go to attorney now. Like, Oh my gosh.
Like I remember sitting in that office. Sitting and wishing like, Oh, that would be so cool. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I am that person now. So it is, your desires were set in motion. Yes, obviously there's so many twists and turns in there, but I remember that so vividly. And it was a cool moment a couple of years ago to have that.
[00:08:52] Kellee Wynne: So your big audacious dream came if we can call it manifesting, but I feel like manifesting is a, A whole lot of layers of what we believe, how we act, what we pursue, what our energy is that we exude to other people. And you were just basically like done with the corporate world. So they broke you free and let you go and pursue this.
What was more natural to you, which was to serve small businesses, which I love is leaning more into. I've been talking a lot lately with my clients about. Zone of competence, zone of excellence, zone of genius, right? And you might have been in a zone of excellence when you were in that corporate job. You were good at it.
Well, all right, at the end, maybe not so good at it if they were ready. There's a reason for that, but you know, you can be good at something and have it still not be the right thing for you. And the fact that you were willing to take that leap and trust yourself and, you know, I mean, like online business and entrepreneurs are growing so rapidly, they need legal support.
And I don't think that they realize how much they need legal support. I think it's 1 of the, the 2 most important things I've invested in right up front was accounting help and legal help. So that I can make sure I was doing things right. That's how I really felt like, Oh, I'm a legitimate business now.
Cause I'm doing all the things I'm supposed to do to make sure I'm safe and secure. Right.
[00:10:20] Andrea Sager: Yeah, exactly. And most of my time, that's such a good point that you bring it up because most of my time now is spent educating. Right. And that's one of my favorite things to do is just educating small businesses on what legal stuff you need.
How do you get it done? What's the cheapest way to get it done? When do you actually need an attorney? And so even because early on, when I first launched, there was a disconnect in my messaging to potential clients.
And I realized, Oh, they first have to be educated because I can't talk to them about needing, you know, this agreement or that trademark or this or that if they don't even know what exactly is needed or why they're needing it.
So we really, we, I feel like that's really been our sweet spot and being able to grow so fast is that we just educate, educate, educate.
[00:11:15] Kellee Wynne: Mm hmm. Bringing that info. I only know so much. So I do try to help the people that I work with and guide them in the right direction. But I can say I am a proud owner of four registered trademarks, which is so cool to think.
But when you have an idea. And you've done your due diligence and you're like, okay, I don't want anyone else to tread on this idea or try to steal it out from under me. And I don't want to infringe on anyone else. What's the best thing I can do is just protect myself.
Right? So that was a decision I made and that was the money that I invested.
It was totally worth it because now I just feel like I can keep pursuing forward. Like Made Remarkable, the name of this podcast is a registered trademark.
[00:11:58] Andrea Sager: Yes. I love it. Yeah,
[00:12:01] Kellee Wynne: I did the thing, but there's a little, there's a little side journey that happens once you've built your started building this business, you became successful really fast, but that that doesn't always equate to the healthiest business practice.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or even how our relationships develop at that point when, you know, successes and everything that everyone sees that it is, it doesn't mean you can finally just rest. Sometimes it just means we, and I'm speaking from experience, you're going to tell your story here in a minute. Sometimes we are just in the hustle every single day and there comes a point where this isn't exactly what we wanted to build.
We didn't mean to make it this heavy, this complicated, this busy, this much work. It feels exhausting. And sometimes for me, at least there are times where I'm spinning my wheels. I know my, my clients as well, spinning their wheels and saying, how do I get this to work? I feel like I've already put in 60 or 80 hours a week.
Why am I not seeing the results of, of what I'm working for? But you did, you said before we started recording that in less than two years, you brought it to a million dollar company.
[00:13:09] Andrea Sager: Yes. Yes. And essentially building it so quickly to a million dollar company equated to me working the 60 to 80 hours a week.
And by that time we had two kids and essentially I would wake up, get them ready, take them to school and work all day. My husband would come home, we'd hang out, have dinner, put the kids to bed, and then I'd work after they went to bed. So, a lot of my time. was spent working, but then I realized essentially I just was not happy in my marriage.
And what I realized was that I was working so much in order to escape my marriage. And so I, long story short about my marriage, it didn't work out. We got divorced and it very, very. Great co parenting relationship. We have a great co parenting relationship, but I discovered so much about myself going through the divorce, obviously.
And then actually taking a hard look at the business. Like this isn't what I want. Like, I don't want to be working 60 to 80 hours a week. I want to enjoy my life and really taking that. Cause my, one of my good friends, Liz. She's in Austin. She sold her company a few years ago. And this was in a period of my life at like post Devoyers, where I was just like, okay, I'm making all this money, but I'm just still not.
Half that happy, you know, like, I feel like something's missing. And she was like, Andrea, listen, I was so burned out and I sold my company. And now I just wake up every day and I asked myself, what's the most fun thing I can do today. And then I go do that. And I was like, Oh, that's what I need to do. And literally from that moment forward, I started really trying to be intentional about enjoying and having fun.
Because if we're not doing that, what are we doing it for? And luckily I've been very fortunate to do that, figure out how can I have more fun? How can I enjoy my life, but also maintaining the business? The business has seen so many changes over the years, but now it's to the point of, to be very honest, we're September 4th recording this.
I didn't work. I didn't work a whole week between May and the middle of August. I was traveling. I was enjoying my life. I was having fun.
[00:15:40] Kellee Wynne: Okay, so this is the story.
This is how do we get to this point? Because I've been the workaholic, not to avoid my husband, because if he says, do you want to go out? And do something I will drop everything I'm doing to go spend time with him, but, you know, he has his own career too, but I'm a workaholic.
And that was 1 of the big things. This this year was a hard year for me. So dropping everything and just learning how to. There's a word that you brought in there joy.
[00:16:10] Andrea Sager: Yes,
[00:16:11] Kellee Wynne: lives are meant to be joyful. And so, I mean, it's so, it's cool to have ambition, especially for me. It took years before I came to the place where I could build up my own business because I was doing the whole stay at home mom thing for such a long time.
So it's been really exciting for me and many of the people I work with. It's like, finally, there's something that you've built for yourself and I'm sure you felt that too when you built it. Oh yeah. This thing myself, right. But then on the other side. It's like, okay, wait a minute. I am not this thing. I am not the business.
The business is only one element of me and I've forgotten how to live. I've forgotten how to read fiction. I've forgotten how to just go out and take a walk around the block because every moment is a moment of productivity, a moment to build a business, a moment that I could do another thing and then you stop and you're like, why do I dread waking up now to the thing that I used to love?
And I'm sure you got to that point where you were just like, Oh, I don't have to do it this way anymore. Or so. At that breaking point that you just finally were like, no more, I'm not doing it this way. What did you do with your business in order to, you know, because certain pieces have to be in place to make it work without you being there all the time.
What were, what were you able to do to keep it and maintain it, but without having to be a slave to it?
[00:17:30] Andrea Sager: Yeah. So honestly, it's about building a team. And I did have a team, but I was still just spinning my wheels. And this is, so this is a lot of really fun, random facts. So my real life best friend is my operations manager.
And we have, we also have two paralegals. Well, she also, so we met in college, we bowled in college, like bowling, went on a bowling scholarship, and she's a professional bowler. She bowls professionally, and so she works probably, she doesn't work full time in the summer because she's bowling on tour. And last summer, not this past summer, but 2023, she was starting her tour, and I now play a lot of poker.
She's Uh, that's a whole other story. I saw that. That's your big question now. Poker. So I, I grew up playing poker. My ex husband didn't want me to play. So I didn't play for like eight years and then we got divorced and I started playing again. Well, last summer there was a group of friends that were going to Vegas for the world series of poker for a tournament.
And one of my friends was just like, come on, let's go. We're going to go have fun. I was like, I'm not good enough. Like it's wasting money, whatever. They essentially forced me to go to Vegas last summer to go play in the world series. I did. I cashed, I made money and I was hooked. And so ever since I got back, well, honestly, what happened, I through two where I wasn't really that much available because I was playing poker, but the team handled it all.
And I was like, Oh, Like, I'm the bottleneck here. Like, they can handle this without me. I'm the one that's forcing myself to do certain things, and I don't have to. So, literally, when I got back last summer, I started Just outsourcing more because I knew I had, I had the right team in place. I was just, I was forcing myself to fill up my day with busy work, which was not necessary.
And so literally the nuts and bolts of what I legitimately did was. I stopped. I use Calendly. I'm sure most people use some kind of Calendly acuity for scheduling calls. I no longer take calls on Fridays. I don't take calls before 10 a. m. I don't, so I have my kids on Tuesdays and Thursdays and then every other weekend.
So Tuesdays and Thursdays, I don't take calls past 3 p. m. Mondays and Wednesdays, I will take calls until like 4 or 5. But it's more so just. Cause if we allow our schedule to be open all day, guess what? It's going to fill up to be all day and we're not going to, we're going to have to find how to build our life around it.
Instead, I started building my life and the business could fit in where it fits in and there were definitely kinks to work out here and there, but. Earlier this year in May, I was like, Hey, I actually want to go and spend more time in Vegas this summer. So I did. And then long story short, uh, I was only supposed to be in Vegas for like two or three weeks.
And then I ended up being gone from the end of May until the middle of August, traveling everywhere with my kids. And then just going here, I went to Europe and doing all the things. And I. I still, I worked a little bit here and there, but it was just what I was necessary for. Cause I am now I'm the only attorney on the team, but a lot of my paralegals handle a lot of it.
So anything that I am actually needed for, that is what I do. And I learned this from Danny Morrell. He's now like a love and relationship coach and he has this big conference, but I was in a mastermind that he came and spoke to one time and he was talking about outsourcing and how to enjoy your life.
And how, cause he has kids too. And he was like, I want to enjoy my life with my kids. I want to actually. Enjoy the fruits of my labor and he said, and it sticks with me every single day. He said, only do what only you can do. So if somebody else can be doing it, you should not be doing it. And that really is the mantra that I've lived by ever since he said that, because I was doing everything.
And now I do what only essentially only a lawyer can do in the business.
[00:21:50] Kellee Wynne: I love it. It makes sense. I'm getting to that point now, although pro tip to everyone, don't change your business model every year and a half because you have a lot of work to do. But that being said, what about those who are starting their business and they're not really there at that point where they have enough money to keep it going and hire?
Like, I believe that you hire. Early because that frees you up to do the things that only you can do that generate money. But that being said, there's still a lot of. Parts moving to a business. There's social media. There's meetings. Like you said, for some of us, we take meetings. I'm a, I do mentorship and coaching.
So I have a lot of meetings. I have podcast interviews to do. I very much limit when that is it's Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. From 10 to about 4, and if you can't fit there, I'm not available because I need that space as well. But there's so many things besides social media, content creation, answering emails, there is for you legal, but there's still legal. There's accounting. There's like managing your finances, all this stuff. But like I said, the very first thing that I got off my plate was legal stuff. And I hired an accountant. That was the first thing. Then I went for house cleaning because that freed me up to have more time, have fun or work on my business.
And then I went for a virtual assistant that could then answer emails and do things that someone else was very competent. In fact, some, in some ways, uh, Way more competent, but it honestly took me and I have the best assistant in the world. She's really my manager, Lisa, but it took me almost two years to just trust that I can just leave things with her and not do it myself.
So how do we start breaking that habit? And like you said, if you're the bottleneck, how do you learn how to hand it over to someone else?
[00:23:47] Andrea Sager: It's a practice. I will tell you that because even, even Still today, I find myself as a bottleneck. So the, one of my least favorite things is email, just because one email can distract you and then you're off track for two hours.
And so from day one, I always wanted my email to be outsourced, not just not to outside of my team, but I wanted my assistant to be handling my, my email as much as possible without me. But even today, like. That usually the process is they'll, you know, whoever's checking my email for the day, they'll text me about what they cannot respond to.
So like, Hey, how do you want me to respond to this? And I'll just text them back or send a voice note. But then there will be emails where I'll be sitting on it. I'm like, Oh no, I just need to sit down and drop that email. But then it even happened yesterday. It, there was an email from last week. I was still sitting on it.
It's like, Oh, I need to sit down and write it. I'm like, Oh no, just voice note and tell them what you want to say. Yeah. And. They'll get it done and they do it and they do a great job and you have to learn, even if you're listening to this, you're like, I can't even afford that. You have to learn how to trust and honestly, it's going to be a lesson on who you can and cannot trust.
Sometimes you're going to waste money. It's okay. It's just part of business. But. It's honestly a practice of starting to outsource it. And I, so my very first employee, which she, I used to love saying that she was still with me to this day. She quit two weeks ago and honestly, it's okay because, and that first one, she called me, it was a gut punch, but I was like, Oh.
No, actually, like we've built up such a great team that the next person can actually just come right in and take it over. And we haven't had any hiccups, which has actually been really beautiful and really great because I'm like, Oh, I mean, I have to be working so much more. I'm going to have to take, I'm like, no, actually we have the infrastructure in place.
So you have standard operating procedures, right? Yeah. It's just trusting the systems you've built. It's trusting the team that you've built. And if you can't trust them, then I know this is going to be outlandish, but I was going to say you shouldn't be in business, but it's just, you have to keep practicing, you have to keep practicing.
Just like you said, you know, you hire people and they, they end up being better than me. Yeah, like that. That's actually how it should be. You should be hiring people that are better than you at all these little tasks. I personally, I have to remind myself like, hey, like you're, you're paying them, like let them do their job.
Like you're paying, let them do their job.
[00:26:34] Kellee Wynne: That's, that's a really good point. And you can start small. There are really affordable, virtual assistants out there and if, you know, for everyone who's like, okay, I'm in the weeds of my business. I feel exhausted. I'm going to burn out. Hire someone for five hours a week.
[00:26:48] Andrea Sager: Yeah, it's exactly what I tell you.
[00:26:51] Kellee Wynne: You'll have time back. And most of the people who, who are in my audience are artists, course creators, whatever, you'll have more time for that creation, which means that you can put that in front of more eyes and attract the right customers. So you're building your business on only the things that you can do.
That is something that I'm learning, but there are. Other things that I've learned, and I don't know about you, but I really made my business way too complicated. So having a simple business has also been one of my, my secrets. Like everyone's like, I have seven streams of income. I'm like, and you have seven jobs to do.
No, it's not fun. Pick one thing and go all in and when that's mastered and you can hand it all over then if you want to add something and then it makes sense, but it's like just juggling the balls and being a slave to social media. There's a lot of things that I had to let go of. And when you're faced, like you said, with burnout, with, recognizing that your relationship's not healthy and that's why you're spending so much time and in your business.
And then there's like this light bulb that goes off. Oh, wait a minute. I'm supposed to be having fun. I'm supposed to have just my life. That's a big huge shift. I know that Western world and especially the United States, there's just like such a mind set around work and productivity equals worth.
And the truth of the matter is, is that you can be incredibly worthy and incredibly wealthy without having to work yourself to death.
[00:28:23] Andrea Sager: 100%. 100%. And that is something very different in the Western world. Just like you mentioned, like, even when I went to Europe for the first time a couple of years ago, I was there with a group of people and The group had paid this tour company and they wanted them to actually work longer.
And the girl that was with us, she was like, no, she's like, I have plans to go with my friends. And she's like, I'm going to pay her a lot more to hang out somewhere, do some, and the guy that was in charge of the group, he's like, we were going to pay her a lot more. She's like, but that's how much people here in Europe value having fun over, over making money.
[00:28:59] Kellee Wynne: Yeah.
[00:28:59] Andrea Sager: Yeah,
[00:29:03] Kellee Wynne: for sure. Definitely a different point of view that we need to adopt more of. Well, let's talk a little bit about what you do professionally, not just for fun. I know that you've got this whole new. It's a winning streak of being a poker player, which is very different. I don't really, I know, I know a lot of people who love to play games, but they're usually board games and tabletop games and Dungeons and Dragons types games, not poker games.
Other than playing poker, what do you, what do you do? Let's talk about poker. Yes,
[00:29:34] Andrea Sager: so other than playing poker, I So I really have two businesses, I have the law firm, which is Andrea Sager Law, and then we have Legalpreneur, which is our DIY, our do it yourself company.
Contract templates, we can file your LLC, we have certain like DIY products there, no legal services, it's what I call a legal resource company. Similar to LegalZoom, but I also like to say we're, I like to think we're a tier higher than LegalZoom.
[00:30:02] Kellee Wynne: Well you also serve a different clientele, being that you're really specialized in trying to help smaller businesses.
And not just everybody.
[00:30:10] Andrea Sager: Right, exactly. And so the law firm, that is the main Business and how you mentioned earlier, simplifying your services. That was actually a big shift as well, because when I first started, I did anything and everything that somebody came to me for, because trying to bring in money and try and really trying to figure out like, what am I needed for the most, but then I also realized pretty quickly, Oh, trademarks, trademarks is really what I want to focus on.
And I've been able to do that luckily for the last six years. And so now I try. To mainly focus on trademarks. We do, Other things as well. But if somebody comes to me like, Hey, I need to do all the, I'm not gonna sue somebody. I'm not gonna, I, I've never sued anybody. You won't ever find me in a suit. I always tell people that you'll most likely find me in my pajamas working on my couch.
Yeah. That is my favorite. Even right here, sitting at this desk, I hardly ever work at my desk. The desk is for podcasting, or recording something, but what I value the most is freedom, including freedom to work from my couch.
[00:31:20] Kellee Wynne: All right. Couch workers unite.
Yeah, for sure. Me too. Talk to us a little bit about trademarks. So we'll at least end on a note of value for everyone who's trying to figure out, is this for me? Because artists, we understand there's an inherent copyright to the work that we've made, like a general umbrella of copyright, because I made the art myself, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we're always protected.
A copyright is different than a trademark. A trademark, If you will, I'm gonna just hand that one right here.
[00:31:59] Andrea Sager: So a trademark is your brand identity. It protects the identity of your brand. That's the easiest way I explain it to people is just think about your brand identity, your brand name, your logo, a slogan, a product name, a service name, your podcast name, anything that has a unique name within your business, it can probably be protected with a trademark.
And then, as you know, copyrights that are, they're automatic. Once you create the work, it's your creativeness, your creative work. Think content. So especially when I'm talking to online businesses, I tell them, Hey, the content that you create on a consistent basis, all of that probably is protected with a copyright, your photos, your videos, your blog posts, your website, copy, your course content, your podcast episodes, those eBooks, those free downloads, all that content is protected with a copyright.
And just like you said, the copyright is automatic as long as it's. Creative and unique trademarks are not automatic. You have to have a federal registration in order to have federal rights. So when clients come to me, I'm like I said, I work with small businesses and it's my job to make their dollar go as far as possible.
Most of the time, that means your money is better spent on a trademark application rather than a copyright application,
because
especially being an online business owner. We're all small businesses. And like I said, I'm not going to sue anybody. So my job is to make sure you don't have to get to that point and that's ensuring we can police your work.
enforce it. If somebody's infringing copyrights, you can do that. Even without a registration, you can submit copyright takedowns all day long trademarks. You can submit trademark takedowns, but you have to have the federal trademark registration. So the power of that federal trademark registration, it is unmatched copyrights.
The big draw there for the registration is to be eligible for statutory damages,
right?
Long story short. It just, it's a bigger bargaining chip when you have an infringer.
[00:34:12] Kellee Wynne: Right, so on trademarks then, so we could For those who want to or need to, actually registering your copyright is something you can submit online and do yourself.
It's a little easier than a trademark and only because I know because I went through the trademark. I decided to hire a lawyer to do it. It was not Andrea because I didn't know you yet. But, now if I need one in the future, I know who to contact. Here's the thing is, One of the main reasons I chose to go ahead and move forward with a trademark is because a friend of mine in her industry, it was a different industry industry than mine, have been using a name longer than someone else.
But that person went and registered it as a trademark and then sued her.
And I'm like, Oh my goodness, that can happen. And that means all the work you've done, you would have to stop. In fact, they can even sue for, for financial damages. And I'm like, wait a minute. But she had like, so it's just one of those things where I'm like, okay, so if I, for me, like if I do my due diligence, I always search before I use something to see if it's In the process of being registered or registered, I search on GoDaddy or any of the domain searches to see is the dot com available and who owns it and do my Google search, find out if this is something that's common being used or somebody's already like there was something I was interested in doing the other day.
And I'm like, Ooh, someone has an actual registered trademark of very close to this in the same industry. And this is another thing I had no idea. You can categorize, there's so many categories of things.
Like, it's so wild and complicated, but when it comes to educational stuff online, which is what most of the people I work with are doing, I'm glad to know that I've been giving them the right advice.
Do your due diligence before settling on a name, and when you've done that, you can start working towards a trademark.
[00:36:14] Andrea Sager: Yes. That is. Such good, such good advice right there. One thing that I do want to mention though, because a lot of people don't realize this about infringement when it comes to trademarks, it's not just when it's the same exact name.
It's when there's anything similar enough to where consumers are likely to be confused. That's the big buzzword that a lot of people aren't aware about is infringement. likelihood of confusion? Is it likely that a consumer could be confused? So confusion does not actually have to occur. And that means the names have to be similar, not necessarily the same.
The goods and services have to be similar.
Exactly. So
Delta Airline and Delta, the Kitchen Sink Faucet Company, they both have federal trademarks, but that's because they're completely unrelated. Right? It's not likely that somebody's gonna buy an airline ticket thinking that they're buying a A faucet. A faucet.
On the other hand though, another big one is legal names. If you have a personal brand. You do want to protect your legal name. Just because you have a legal name does not mean you're legal to conduct business with that name. And I've seen so many people that have lost the rights. So a big one lately is, Haley Page.
She was a wedding dress designer and she had a big court case, but I, I've been using that as an example lately because, you can lose the rights to your legal name in business. So even if you have a personal brand, you want to make sure you are protecting it.
[00:37:50] Kellee Wynne: Okay, these are really good things to do now.
It's not exactly just pennies to go and register a trademark. So I, I recommend someone be firmly committed to the name that they're picking, but it is worthwhile. If you've, if you've named a course, if you've named. Uh, program that you've designed a whole, if you're creating your own online school of courses, this is a time where a podcast, like you said, this is the time to do your due diligence and then submit for the trademark, because this is what's going to protect you in the long run.
I don't think that spending a couple thousand dollars or so on protecting yourself for the next decade is a bad idea. Right. And what is how you're going to fit.
[00:38:37] Andrea Sager: Right. And what I'm trying to really get across, especially to a lot of educators, coaches, course creators, is trademarks not only help prevent brand confusion, but they can also help you create.
additional revenue streams. So what I'm seeing a lot right now with coaches that have, or have created courses, it's this natural progression of the Latin, you know, how you have, you have your offer ladder, but after you're teaching so many people, eventually you're going to have somebody ask like, Hey, can I go teach this?
And. That's when you want to create a certification because you, it's your brand that you're building up. And now you're going to have all these other people pay you in order for them to use your brand for them to make money. And all, all the certification is, is intellectual property. And it's structuring it in such a way to where you are not only making money to certify them, but actually intellectual property is one of the ways.
Where you can truly make passive income because, of course, we know it's a big buzzword, but true passive income comes through royalties, through intellectual property, and real estate. It can be real estate, and there's a few others, but one of the true only ways to create passive income is through real estate.
Is intellectual property getting royalties and that can be done through creating a certification or just any traditional license, which is just giving somebody permission to use your trademark,
[00:40:16] Kellee Wynne: right? And it's not just here's my ideas that you get used, but you also get my brand name behind it. And so that's when you're building something that's really cool.
You can use that. Yeah,
[00:40:29] Andrea Sager: I've been having a lot of fun lately helping clients create certification programs. That's, that's been one of my fun things the past year.
[00:40:36] Kellee Wynne: That's something I would love to do, but I'm not quite there yet because remember simple. Simple first, not until I've gotten a little further along.
When can you not trademark? Like, if there are words that are just so commonly used consistently, could you explain like where it's like when everyone's like, come to my sketchbook art journaling course. Art journaling is used so commonly. Like for example, or sketchbook. These are things that terms that everyone's using.
A mixed media art course. Like those are the kinds of things when you're like. I know there's other words like intuitive painting. There's a lot of common terms in the art world. We could even just say like ceramics if we're talking about like I could go on like these are common terms and I and I noticed a lot of.
I'm like, I like really creative and out of this world names for my products, but some people really just literally name it what it is. And are you in a safer zone? If you do that and you don't want to trademark, if you've picked a name that's just so common, I mean, yes, you're not going to stand out from the crowd, but you also probably don't have to worry about any sort of infringement.
And you probably don't even have the ability to trademark it.
[00:41:52] Andrea Sager: Right. So, There are a ton of nuances when it comes to trademark. So none of this is like. 100%. So, but I will say the general rule is if it is a generic word and generic, meaning generic to exactly what you're doing, then it cannot be protected.
And an example there is a clothing store. So if somebody has an online boutique, a clothing store, and they want to call it the clothing store, that's going to get denied for being generic because it's generic as to being a clothing store. However, many, I think a lot of people probably heard of monday.
com. Obviously Monday is a common generic word, but they have Monday trademarked because it is a online business management platform or something like that. So it's a business management. Yeah. So it's not being used to describe the day of the week, but it is a common word. So you, you have to make sure you're.
If it is a generic word, it's not being used in relation to what it's describing. If you do that, however, you definitely would not be able to get a trademark for it, but you still may be able to use it if nobody else is using it. And it, cause this is where it gets very nuanced because I'm talking federal trademarks.
There is a state level trademark, which I tell clients not to worry about. Because I'm working with online businesses, we're immediately eligible for federal trademarks, so we don't really care about state. But, if you're a local, if you're a local bookstore, and you're called The Bookstore, and there's another bookstore called The Bookstore, you know, a couple of hours away, They could come after you on a state level.
[00:43:47] Kellee Wynne: Okay.
[00:43:48] Andrea Sager: So even though we're
[00:43:49] Kellee Wynne: definitely speaking, like you said, we're talking about online stuff. So if I was to name my class, sketchbook exploration or something. It's fairly generic because you are doing literally that. But if I was to name my shoes sketchbook, that's something. Well, there's Sketchers, so Sketchers would come after you.
I was like, I thought of shoes, and I'm like, no. Sketchers would come after me. Fine. I'll name my car. Sketchbook .
[00:44:16] Andrea Sager: Yeah, maybe that might be, that's, yeah, that's really the general rule is it's. generic in regards to what you're doing. So if you have a product called the sketchbook, you would not get denied. If it was an actual sketchbook, you would get denied because you can't have a trademark for that.
But if you had it be called I'm looking over here at my bookshelf to just come up with a magical sketchbook. Magical sketchbook. Might be okay. You would get approved, but you would have to disclaim sketchbook. And disclaim just means that you're not claiming that you have the right to use just sketchbook, it has to be used with magical.
So as long as nobody else is using magical sketchbook, you could go and trademark magical sketchbook. And if anybody else wanted to use magical sketchbook, that would be infringement on your trademark.
[00:45:12] Kellee Wynne: So the more unique the name and concept, maybe the easier it is if you really want your own trademark, if you want this something to be a brand, something that's either sellable or you can license it.
Let's go for unique. Yes, exactly. Do some searching. That's why I have names like Made Remarkable. Which was actually, we have a remarkable tablet. It's a completely different product than what I'm doing. So it actually wasn't very hard for me to be able to trademark the name for this. I have some other ideas for trademarks.
Not that I'm going to tell anyone yet. I love to just come up with as, as unique as I can and hope. But the idea that I have even has the. com available. And then I know I'm kind of in the direction of, of clear. So this is just to give an idea for, for my, not just my listeners, but even my clients, like what is possible with your business, what is it that you can do?
What does it mean? If you have an original idea, you go all in on it. You believe in what you're doing and you trademark the name and you've created something really. Like stand out. I want people to own their passion and own the path that they're on. And that was one of the reasons why I thought it would be really cool to bring a trademark attorney on with us today.
And also you're really fun to talk to Andrea.
[00:46:35] Andrea Sager: Thank you. I appreciate that.
[00:46:37] Kellee Wynne: So how can people get in touch with you?
[00:46:40] Andrea Sager: Well, if you are interested in trademarks, you can go to Andrea Sager. com. If you're interested in, Contracts filing an LLC, you can go to thelegalpreneur. com. And if you just want to say hi, you can find me on Instagram at Andrea Sager Law.
[00:46:56] Kellee Wynne: That's great. And if anyone likes to play poker, she'd probably love to chat with you about it. Yes. Yes.
[00:47:05] Andrea Sager: Playing poker.
[00:47:07] Kellee Wynne: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast with me. This was really fun and enlightening.
[00:47:12] Andrea Sager: Thank you.
If you'd like to listen to or learn more about the podcast visit https://www.maderemarkable.com/blog for our show notes and links to the main players.